Insights into my posts, although this is from another post

[theyellowhobbit]

Michoel
February 14th, 2006 14:30
10

This is a serious question, not intended to be patronizing or funny: Does anyone have a thought as to why the most interesting and comment inspiring writing in this blog’s short existence has been written by women? I have a thought but I’d like to hear someone else's thoughts.



Rachel Adler
February 14th, 2006 15:35
12

Michoel-

My guess is that we’re used to hearing male perspectives on Judaism. All halachic literature, most mussar literature, and most explanations of the Torah [the latter 2 at least until recently] have been written by men. The “women’s experience” is not the norm, and sometimes we take for granted that everyone thinks and feels the same way as us.

Living a Torah-observant life as a woman, especially a BT woman, is very different from living a Torah-observant life as a man. There are many issues [deemed “women’s issues”] that come up because of a woman’s lack of obligation in specific mitzvot, and because of the role that she is supposed to fulfill.

At least for me, many of the issues that I’m having in my teshuva would not be so relevant if I were male. I think the transition to frumkeit might be harder for women in general, although I obviously can’t know that for a fact.

Therefore, us women may be offering a unique perspective here. I don’t know why my posts in particular draw so many comments; perhaps it is because I am a more liberal Jew than the vast majority of people here on the site, and therefore a lot of you tend to disagree with me.

Or maybe we’re all just good writers. :)


On another note- this is the 7th year in a row that Ive worn all black clothing for Valentine's day. I started the tradition during freshman year of high school, when I also wore a necklace made out of candy hearts that said "whatever" on them. Unfortunately the necklace broke, and they stopped making the whatever hearts, so I could never replace it. Otherwise I'd probably be wearing it today.

**Edit** Celine called me to wish me a happy Valentine's Day, and she, too is wearing all black, in honor of me. :)

I'm also mashing in 20 minutes, which means I'll get a lot of chocolate covered strawberries! They run out quickly, so I'll be beating the dinner rush.

Year #2 in which I mash on Valentine's day/the day in which we have a Valentine's day meal in Hillel.

Comments

Posts

[(Anonymous)]

I think i know why, think about it, its so much easier for a woman to become observant, most men i know become bitter and angry and the women tend to embrace it so much more...

Re: Posts

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

why do you say that, Ms./Mr. anonymous?

Re: Posts

[tourogal.livejournal.com]

its not really. a person becoming frum needs the structure of what the religion is. women only have 3 commandments. men have the rest. they might not like the schedule, but at least they know what to expect.

Re: Posts

[arctic-alpine.livejournal.com]

Wow!!!!
As Jewish woman, I can now eat treif, shop on shabbat, go to sleep early on seder night, pass on the chanuka candles, not bother with megilla reading,, fail to give charity or return lost property, be cruel to animals, sleep in too late to pray,speak lashon hara, skip kiddush on shabbat, so long as I bake bread once a week, don't sleep with my husband (if/when married) during and after my period, and light candles once a week.
thanks for letting me know!

Re: Posts

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

watch the sarcasm, dear. I don't want any flame wars on my posts...

Re: Posts

[tourogal.livejournal.com]

i refuse to get into an ideological debate with you. i was attempted to explain the spirit of the religion that repects a woman to the point where much of what you said is not required, but adds to the meaning of the holiday if done. you want to go tzeduki, go ahead. you can do what you want. i am not a rabbi, do not make any pretense of being such. i am an orthodox woman who refound my religion through heartbreak. i do not need to mince words with you in order to be secure in myself and my practice of my religion.

Re: Posts

[arctic-alpine.livejournal.com]

Tourogal,
My post was in no way intended as an attack on a way of life you hold dear. Observant Judaism is something beautiful and important to me as well. While neither of us are rabbis, it is still valuable to understand the rules of our tradition in order to understand what these rules are trying to teach us.
I picked the mitzvot I listed very carefully, as ones that women are specifically obligated in. The rabbis pick out shabbat, pesach, purim, and chanuka as holidays whose time-bound mitzvot women are still obligated in.
There isn't a clearly defined "women's space" in Judaism, you touched on this in your first post as well. Some women might embrace their lack of obligation in certain mitzvot, but it is difficult to claim that Judaism lexpects women to come close to Hashem through emotions, rather than actions, when it obligates them in a lot of actions.

[alanscottevil.livejournal.com]

I find that problems usually begin the instant when "the role that she is supposed to fulfill" is seen as anything more encompassing than "a woman’s lack of obligation in specific mitzvot".

I heard a rabbi once claim that women "belong" in the home because of Issur Begged Ish. That's a conscious decision to go far beyond the claims of halacha into the area where "Torah" is nothing more than a weapon to club those around you with.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

Whenever someone tells me that weapons are kli gever, I respond that a cuisinart is beged Isha. And boy can I use a cuisinart!

By the way, there is no "beged ish" prohibition. It's kli gever and beged isha. That's the pasook.

And how the heck is "everything outside of the house" "beged ish"?????????

[alanscottevil.livejournal.com]

thanks for the terminological correction. i always associate "kli gever" as "beged ish" in my head, i should stop.

and yeah, that's my point.

[tourogal.livejournal.com]

my teachers in high school said it best when they said that women feel judaism in a way men can't. personally, i love the fact that the house is mine to run and he according to halacha has to follow me, but that's me. and i guess i am kind of BT since my father became frum as i was growing up. i'm rambling a little, but the point is that women feel. men have to explain what they are doing and stick to a certain routine in order not to stray, but women just know. and they might not write books, but they talk. and superhero doesn't even start to cover it.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

But this all assumes that the woman has a house to run. And that the woman is married. A woman can only have a role in Judaism when she is a wife and/or mother...

[tourogal.livejournal.com]

nope. just that she intends to get married at some point. define role. me, i liked not having to get up to daven if i wanted to sleep late or needing to get marks on my arms from tefillin. i didn't need it. i needed to get decent grades on my tests. so i davened. i did what i did to make me feel better, not for any obligation i might have had. after i got married, i did it to train my children. the beauty of being a jewish woman is that it really does come from the heart. your emotions lead you to be closer to Gd, not the actions that you do. if the emotions lead you to action, all the better. embrace the fact that if you want, you can sort your thoughts by reading tehillim or baking challah.

[arctic-alpine.livejournal.com]

Blanket statements about what women and men are bother me. I myself don't "feel" the truth of Judaism. I sure as heck need a routine, and when i break from it, Judaism falls part for me.
In terms of being in the house, I could be an evangelical christian and be in the house, or a good muslim woman and be in the house and raise the kiddies to pray to God and whatever. The house isn't intrinsically Jewish the way that shul is.

[tourogal.livejournal.com]

think of it as mars and venus for religion. i can't tell you what will work for you. i know that i personally (and since i can only speak from experience, if you don't like it, skip it) need to spirit of the religion to keep the word of the religion. that's me.
if you have serious questions and doubts, i suggest you speak to your local orthodox rabbi.

[arctic-alpine.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that none of us can speak for much more than our own personal experience. Thats why I see blanket "women this" and "men that" statements as problematic, they attempt to speak for all men or all women.
I've read the Mars/Venus book, and one of the things I did like about it was Gray's comment in the beginning that it was ok for women to be martians sometimes adn for men to be venusians.

Rather than having serious doubts and questions, I accept/don't accept different beliefs than many orthodox Jews. I disagree with many big beliefs in Judaism, but for me, this is not a problem to fix.
I understand Judaism not as absolute historical truth but as an experience to be lived. That's part of why mitzvot are very important to me, the touchy-feely part won't be there otherwise.

[yaldat-chayil.livejournal.com]

Mashing? What's this? I wish we had a Valentine's Day meal at Hillel here....
Happy Valentine's Day!

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

Mashing= mashgiaching= kosher supervising. It pays 8$ an hour!

The chocolate covered strawberries weren't as good this year. The chocolate was grainy :(

[masteraleph.livejournal.com]

Alright, so, I couldn't decide which part of these threaded comments to reply to, so I'm doing it at the bottom, and will quote from various people.

Becoming "frum" is very difficult for both genders, for many reasons. On the female side, a lot of it has to do with increased restrictions, which have already been brought up: stuff like kol isha, beged ish/a, etc. On the male side, as tourogal meant to put it (I think), are a lot of increased obligations- stuff like davening 3 times a day, for example. The difference in a college community like this one is public vs. private domain, opinion, and reactions. For women, most of the issues fall into the public domain: you can't sing, for example, because there are a few people out there who will be offended. For men, on the other hand, some may look down on not going to minyan three times a day, but when it's noon and too late for shacharit and too early for mincha, no one cares. For women, singing is still an issue.

As for the assertion about running a house- I've often thought that Hillel in particular (not just Penn Hillel, but it certainly is included) , as well as the Jewish community in general has a particular failing in this regard. I subscribe to the comment of Avi Orlo, the Rabbi at Wash U Hillel. He often comments that Hillel needs to be a 14 year organization, not a 4 year one; that is, Hillel needs to not only prepare you to deal with your 4 years of college but also the 10 or so after. The reason for this is very simple: up through college, there are lots of things for Jews to do in the communal setting (as well as responsibilities when they're home). After they get married and particularly once they have kids, then there's also social links at whatever shul they're at, plus running a household. In between, however- when one is not married- is the hardest time, because we don't really have a place for such people. Sure, you go to the Upper West Side or the Heights to find a shidduch, and if you don't, then there's something wrong with you. Or if you're more secular, you drop off the planet all togther. Granted that you're still in college, but I think this is starting to hit you quite early.

One final word, which will probably really turn this into flamebait: while there are significant halachic issues with regards to "women's mitzvot," there is a tendency to go significantly l'chumra on them, particularly on Kol Isha. My personal opinion is that going l'chumra just to go l'chumra is stupid, and as R' Soloveitchik said, it's assur to be stupid. Then again, I also think that men and women should learn gemara together, so what can I say?

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

1. At Pennn, men can't look down on you for not going to minyan 3 times a day- for all they know you went to the earlier/later minyan. That would only apply on Shabbat, and then there are too many people for your absence to be noticed.

2. I think that taking on obligations is much easier than giving things up. Shabbas was easy. Kashrut was easy. Tzniut was easy. Not being able to read Torah or lead davening or whatnot is incredibly hard. You don't lose anythingg by adding obligations, except for time and places to eat. But I had to give up a lot. A lot that I wouldn't have had to give up had I been male. I resent that a lot, because I still don't see the value in being a Jewish woman. All that has been said doesn't connect to me. I'd rather have the more rules. I don't want my role to be defined by a husband and kids. I want to be seen for me both in the Jewish sphere and the secular sphere. It's not fair that an Orthodox woman's identity is based on her family. I don't think being in charge of a home is beautiful. It's degrading and patronizing if you [not you masteraleph but you in the general sense of the word] expect that to be fulfilling for me, because it's not. I am not every woman. I am not especially connected to parenting or nurturing. Ok maybe I nurture in the sense of giving everyone deli-roll, but I doubt deli-roll is actually healthy by any stretch of the imagination.]

3. There probably is something wrong with me. I don't want a shidduch. I'd much rather marry a guy less religious than me who would keep kashrut and Shabbat and let me sing and stuff than a talmid hacham. Like pulling a levana_b. I might not daven egal, but I'm starting to think that the Conservative community has more attraction, in particular the lack of judgement that I've seen in Orthodoxy lately [albeit online]. Then again there's no real Conservative community in Israel. Maybe I can hang out with the Pardes crowd.

4. I agree with you on the chumra bit. [Doesn't Rambam talk about that?]

Ok. Gotta shower and get to lunch. Will you be there?