Angry Rant Against The OCP

[theyellowhobbit]

So it's been since last semester when we've had a good tisch. And by good I mean one of those loud, singing, table banging types of tisches.

So last week 403 said they'd make a tisch, and they did, except it was a shalshuddis type song session instead of a tisch. But they said they'd do one this week.

But they lied. And they're going to do it next week, when I'm at the bat-mitzvah that I have to go to.

I haven't heard chad gadya since Simchat Torah.

Ok. You think I'm overreacting in my pissed off-ness. Maybe I am. But then, you didn't have to give up what I did. All of those fun, crazy, energetic song sessions they had in NFTY. And there were still some in Kesher, even though they weren't as good. And I would have been a Reform Rabbi, so we would have had fun crazy song sessions every Friday night, complete with guitar and all.

So I gave up all that, which is fine, since I like keeping halacha, but there's no halacha that says Orthodox people should be boring and not freaking sing!

And I had to give it all up. And at least last year there were tisches, but now, stupid people in 403, my stupid friends in 403, have decided they hate all things singingy and fun.

If I was a guy, I could have my own tisch. But because I'm a girl, I can't. Everyone was like "oh, there will be tons of singing on Purim." And there was. And do you know where it was at? THE GUYS' MEALS!!!! No one sang at the girls' meals, because girls have no energy. And they don't like singing! Why couldn't we have had a seudah like the guys? It's not fair! So if I had a girls' tisch, it would be boring and we'd end up having no energy, because Orthodox girls don't know how to be uninhibited, even when there are no guys around.

Why do I have to be a girl? Of all the people in the world, I shouldn't have to be a girl. There's this stupid kol isha rule. And this stupid rule that girls can't read torah, or lead services, or do anything I love. We're supposed to be modest. What good is modesty? I don't want to be modest!!!!

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I am trying to tell people how upset I am. Though no one reading this live journal can do anything about it.

Comments

[desh]

I really want to talk to you about egalitarianism again sometime. I think we did once, but it was before you were so frum.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

what about egalitarianism?

i can't become un-frum now and be egalitarian...it's not the way things work.

i don't really regret becoming orthodox. i regret the OCP being stupid and unsingingy

how do they expect to do kiruv and get NFTY people to want to be orthodox if "orthodoxy" means losing all that fun singing that they were used to?

better to replace it with something even more fun.

but no one in the OCP believes me or agrees with me. I'm the crazy leftist

[desh]

Yeah, I'm not saying you did something wrong. I just want to talk. Like, about why you became frum, maybe. We've never really talked about it, and I have some questions, if you don't mind answering them.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

Sure. [sorry, i was still in angry bitch mode when I responded to your comment]
Ask away. You can post here, or e-mail me, or talk to me if you're here this shabbas [since we have a long shabbas afternoon and can actually talk!] or call my cell [it's listed on facebook] or something

[smokingredmoon.livejournal.com]

i'll sing with you! come to ny! i loved my hs shabbaton's during havdallah.. everyone would sing and seniors would hold the havdalah candles.. and it was fun!

practical suggestion?

[kressel.livejournal.com]

I won't try to convince you with any hashkafic discussion, so instead I'll make some suggestions. There's a troupe of YU/Stern students who go to shuls around the country to liven things up. What you need is to get an all-girl group to come and lead a women's sing at the Shabbos tisch. (Shalosh seudos might work out best.) If you sing with them, others in your community will follow and get used to the idea, and then you can do it as a set thing every week.

Another idea might be to have women's get-togethers on Rosh Chodesh. You might even have concerts. I know of several all-female performance troupes. Since it's for kiruv, it might even be sponsored. What do you think?
en who sing and dance.

Re: practical suggestion?

[masteraleph.livejournal.com]

There are womens' events on Rosh Chodesh (or at least, there used to be). The problem is that the girls just don't want to sing. There was one point, earlier this year, with separate girls/guys tisches. Ran into some girls standing outside the guys' tisch which was going strong, and when asked abou the girls' one, it went something like this:

me: so how's the tisch?
rachel m: you know how the girls all sit in the back at most tisches and talk?
me: yeah
rachel m: that's exactly what it's like, except everyone is a girl.

I came down later, and sang some with like 4 girls who actually wanted to sing.

It should be mentioned that OCP generally doesn't like to sing- Kabbalat Shabbat tends to result in a lot of silence and some singing for lecha dodi, but not much else.

To Rachel- I'm sure that chad gadya will get broken out during pesach.

Re: practical suggestion?

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

and also, are you sure about that, Josh? The rays aren't gonna be here...

Re: practical suggestion?

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

josh's masteraleph response says anything that I could.

the women's events stopped. I don't know why.

but yeah. girls here don't like singing. though they do sing on women's kabbalat shabbat. which also happens to be next week. :-p

I'm not really against kol isha, or the whole fact that only someone who is obligated to daven can lead a minyan, or kavod ha tzibur. I just get frustrated from time to time. those commandments are the hardest ones for me, because I used to sing all the time, and lead services and read torah. And I love doing all those things and am good at them. In comparison, shomer nagiah was nothing, considering I never had a boyfriend, so it wasn't like I was getting any when I wasn't frum...

[amawahibiki.livejournal.com]

Hmm... this is a difficult one.
First, do you know about Shira Chadasha (http://emmas_space.blogspot.com/2004_07_01_emmas_space_archive.html). It treads a thin line between what is permissable and what isn't, but they claim to have found their "loophole"- many of the women there are quite observant though. I wouldn't recommend it, but my wife says you should have a look just to see how silly it is ;-)
When you make it to Israel ;-)
The Kol Isha thing is wierd- the boundary is a bit unclear to me. Obviously women singing during prayers is a problem, but singing zmirot at a shabbes table can be a grey area. My friends in Itamar have their daughters sing the zmirot, and they're totally charedi, and it seems to me that it's fairly normative in their circles. So that's somewhere where you can be more lenient perhaps, if it's at a setting where it is acceptable. You can try to energise the girls' meal as well- sing loudly until people join you ;)
prezzey and miou_vicioso are very impressive, aren't they? I would be interested in their comments to your post...

[tobeginagain.livejournal.com]

I 'm not quite so sure why you consider Shira Hadasha (http://www.geocities.com/shira_hadasha/) "silly." It's obviously filling a need, seeing as there are now a dozen congregations like it worldwide. If you, your wife, or sen_ich_rei aren't comfortable there, then that's certainly your prerogative. Incidentally, a very frum friend of mine doesn't like praying there because the singing makes services last a very long time. Me, I love that. But I also have no problems with women leading kabbalat shabbat/psukei dzimra/kriat hatorah and that's my prerogative. Not sure what's silly about it, is all. (Oh, they have lots of background humming and harmonizing at all times so as not to violate kol isha, if you were wondering. And regarding kavod hatzibur, as a tzibur, they decided having women in halachicly permissible leadership roles wasn't an issue of kavod for *them*.)

[amawahibiki.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's as simple as that. There is no case made there for women reading the Torah L'CHATCHILA, only bediavad, so I'm not sure a tsibur can just decide that it's not an issue of kavod for them. It's always going to be stretching the law.
That's what I think is a bit silly about the place- not that I've ever been. My wife has. I can't speak for her, but my impression upon seeing the site, although it certainly serves a need, is that it's like a therapy group for women who feel they HAVE to read the Torah in front of men. It seems a bit pathetic- they know it's wrong, but they can't help it so they find some little loophole and do it in a very restricted manner in a way which may be within the bounds of what is OK but which is certainly not mainstream Hallachic practice.
My biggest problem though was with the sentence "bringing our synagogue lives in line with our ethical beliefs". Which implies what is in fact the case, that their ethics are external to Judaism, and they feel that they have to reshape their Judaism to conform to those beliefs. This is why I don't think Rachel will like it much there- she's frummer than that, and she isn't looking for ways to twist and bend Judaism in order to suit the ethical values of a surrounding culture.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

It's true that i'm not looking to bend judaism...but lately i've been getting more and more frustrated with the lack of opportunities for me and less and less fulfilled. For example, there hasn't been women's kabbalat shabbat since january. My main reason for likeing women's kaballat shabbat isn't because its all women, but beacause we actually sing, and normal OCP doesn't. I'm just as happay going to Yikar or something.

I don't know if you could say I'm "frummer" than the people at shirah chadasha, though. For all you know, they could be more machmir on kashrut, or torah study. I don't really like playing the "I'm frummer than you" game. If you're following halacha, then you're following halacha. Granted, some things obviously aren't following halacha, like playing guitar on shabbat, but other than the obvious, I don't feel like it's my place to judge. That's what G-d does.

[tobeginagain.livejournal.com]

::shrug::

This is why I don't think Rachel will like it much there- she's frummer than that, and she isn't looking for ways to twist and bend Judaism in order to suit the ethical values of a surrounding culture.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but you did. And besides, this original post includes a line "And this stupid rule that girls can't read torah, or lead services, or do anything I love".... I know she was speaking out of anger, and I also know that she's visited Shira Hadasha, I was asking *you* why *you* called Shira Hadasha silly.

There are dozens of things I could quote to you and even more people I could refer you to regarding the [non]issue of women reading Torah. But we both agree not to agree, and I'm fine ending it there.

It seems a bit pathetic- they know it's wrong,....
The many women and men who enjoy praying at Shira Hadasha even though they, often officially, consider themselves part of the Reform, Reconstructionist, or Conservative movements sure don't "know it's wrong." They 'know' it's right. They just love the davening [sic].

is that it's like a therapy group for women who feel they HAVE to read the Torah in front of men.
Hundreds of men and women show up every time they have services, so it's certainly not just for women, or even women who want to read Torah. I'd say it's primarily about the community and the music. The melodies and the way they're sung is incredible, if you're into that sort of thing. By far the majority of women [and men] in attendance do not and will not lead or read Torah there. The kehilla is simply too large.

Oh, and Rachel. My new [potential] apartment is literally next door to Shir Chadash! Which is way exciting even though their English divrei torah often irk me.

[prezzey.livejournal.com]

I will comment but right now my mouth hurts so much I can't really think straight. I have just had minor surgery (I had a gum boil and it had to be cut open) and the anaesthetic is wearing off. OWWWW*

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

:( feel better!

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

I've been to shirah hadasha before. [last summer in Israel I did a lot of shul-hopping]. I enjoyed it a lot. I also like Yikar and Shir Chadash, which had just as much singing, and no halachic issues. The problem is that I'm not in Israel, and I'm here.

In our community women can sing Zmirot. It's just that most of them would rather talk. I'm not the only girl who sings, but there are only like 4 of us or something.

Sometimes girls sing at shabbas meals. I don't know why no one wanted to have a singing purim seudah. I'm gonna host a girls' seudah next year, in theory, since I'll have such a huge apartment. There had better be singing...

[kressel.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna host a girls' seudah next year, in theory, since I'll have such a huge apartment.

And why not make girls' shalosh seudos every week (with help of course)?

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

also- FYI, the mechitza at Penn is more see through than the one at Shira Hadasha...