I actually did work!!!

[theyellowhobbit]

Looks like the lj ban is lifted. whee!

 

9c. Understanding and Assessment xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /

Think about what you think there is to know about the section of the gemara that we have been working on (from the first מתקיף until the איכא דאמרי .) In whatever format you choose, write something that demonstrates to me that you understand the material.  If you think that there are things that you don't understand, identify those things. After you have completed this part of the assignment, step back from your work. On the basis of what you have written, craft an actual assignment that you would use as an assessment vehicle in a classroom to help you figure out whether or not the students understand this material. (You can design an in-class assessment, or an out of class assessment [such as homework.] Your choice. (Please note, this is a TWO part assignment.)

 

Translation is in bold and pink, the Rachel commentary is in non-bold and blue. I hope you don’t get a headache reading this…

 

מתקיף לה רמי בר חמא

Rami bar xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /Hama attacked [the previous argument of the tzricha].

: והא אין אדם מקנה דבר שלא בא לעולם.

Behold! Yes, I like the literal translation. It’s impossible to transfer ownership of something that does not yet exist- ie the kefel. [further on we’ll explain more about its non existence]

 ואפילו לרבי מאיר, דאמר: אדם מקנה דבר שלא בא לעולם - הני מילי כגון פירות דקל, דעבידי דאתו

And even according to Rabbi Meir, who said that you can transfer ownership of something that doesn’t exist- these words which R. Meir just said are in cases like the fruit of a palm tree, that certainly will come. And therefore, cannot be applied to our case of the kefel.

, אבל הכא מי יימר דמגנבא,

But here, [in our case] who can say that it [the pikadon] will be stolen? IE- how can you guarantee that it will be stolen? You don’t know the future. It’s very possible the shomer could watch carefully enough and the object won’t be stolen. Isn’t that the whole idea of appointing a shomer in the first place?!?!?!

 ואם תמצי לומר דמגנבא - מי יימר דמשתכח גנב

And if we conclude and say that it will be stolen, who can say that we will find the thief? It’s very possible that we won’t find the thief. These things are not given.

, ואי משתכח גנב - מי יימר דמשלם, דלמא מודי ומפטר

And if we find the thief, who can say that he [the thief] will pay the kefel? Perhaps he will return the object, admit to his guilt, and be exempt from paying the kefel.

. אמר רבא: נעשה כאומר לו: לכשתגנב ותרצה ותשלמני - הרי פרתי קנויה לך מעכשיו.

Rava said: “It’s as if he [the owner] said to him [the shomer] ‘If it [the object you are guarding] is stolen and you want to pay me, this cow will belong to you as of now. This “as of now” is important, since in the next section we’re going to argue whether or not the transfer of the object can be at the time of the ba’al ha pikadon giving the object to the shomer.

-         מתקיף לה רבי זירא:

-         Rabbi Zira attacked Rava.

-          אי הכי, אפילו גיזותיה וולדותיה נמי.

-         If this is true, even the shearings and the offspring [should also belong to the shomer]

-          אלמה תניא: חוץ מגיזותיה וולדותיה –

-         However a tannaitic source [which in this case and most cases with “Tania” happens to be a braita…Livia got points off in her Gemara class for saying “Tania” means that it was taught in a braita.] says “the cow belongs to the owner except for the shearings and offspring.” So the ba’al ha pikadon still owns the shearings and the offspring.

-          אלא אמר רבי זירא: נעשה כאומר לו חוץ מגיזותיה וולדותיה.

-         Rather, Rabbi Zira says: it’s as if [the ba’al] said to [the shomer] [if the cow gets stolen and you want to pay for it, then this cow will belong to you as of now] except that the shearings and offspring belong to me.”

-          - ומאי פסקא? –

-         Why stop there? How far are you going to take this? [seriously, it is getting a little ridiculous. Who makes a sale that way? This can’t be how this is really done]

-         סתמא דמלתא, שבחא דאתא מעלמא - עביד איניש דמקני

-         Ordinarily, profit that comes from the outside, [that is unexpected, like the kefel] People will be willing to transfer Ok, that sounds bad in English. Let me rephrase- Ordinarily people will be willing to transfer profit that comes from the outside.

-         , שבחא דמגופה - לא עביד איניש דמקני.

Profit that comes from the thing itself [that is expected, like the shearings and the offspring] people would not be willing to transfer. People would not normally transfer the shearings and the offspring, because they’re counting on getting it. It’s theirs. They’re not just gonna give it away to the shomer who paid the cost of the cow that they lost or didn’t watch carefully enough

so I'm not quite done yet. I have yet to make up the "assignment." I'm debating on whether or not to include the Rashi. I could make it "extra credit" but it means me doing more work. I like the rashi we did, but it isn't all typed out on my comp. :-p