Shlomo is the coolest person ever.

[theyellowhobbit]

Hey Shlomo-

So I'm writing a Hellerstein paper, and we're comparing a real and a
fictional story of Hasidic Rebes. For the most part I understand both
stories, but in the real story, there's one paragraph that made me say
"WTF?!?!?!" which is:

After the dancing [at the wedding] the Rebe took out a whip and began
striking in a light, paternal way; a hasid who pushed foward for a
lashing received one that made him cry out in pain against his will,
which satisfied him [the Hasid]

So was there ever a tradition is Hasidism of flagelation? doesn't this
go against the Jewish values of the sacredness of the body and how it
belongs to G-d and not you and that's why the Torah equates suicide with
murder, etc.? And I've never seen it anywhere else in Judaism. Gah

If you have an answer, that would be most excellent [or ask one of your
Gush Rabbis. They know everything, right?] Even if not in time for my
paper, then to satisfy my curiousity.

~TYH


From what I hear flagellation was a major Christian idea in the early
1000's; from there, certain Jewish groups at the time may have adapted
the idea (they called themselves Hasidim - no direct relation to the
later Hasidim), and possibly the idea has lasted up to the current day
through the modern Hasidim... (Look up "sefer chasidim" and "chasidei
ashkenaz")

It doesn't seem like anyone is getting injured in this whipping, and
if in some bizarre way it makes them feel closer to God, then it would
be an understandable (modern) Hasidic idea. I think the Hasidim are
big on anything that makes you feel close to God, unless it's really
really out of bounds. Or maybe this could just be a strange form of
dancing, or a symbolic way of emphasizing the rebbe's authority over
them.

Comments

[alanscottevil.livejournal.com]

I've seen lubavitchers self-flagellate on Erev Yom Kipur. It gets rough.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

No way! In Stolin, the men have that minhag, too, but it's done lightly and symbolically in remembrance of makos.

[tobeginagain.livejournal.com]

Ah, gush boys....

[http://users.livejournal.com/stone_/]

Flagellation comes from Makkot (lashes) originally. Many chasidic sects had some elements of ritual self-abuse to make up for the lack of modern day makkot application. For instance some would roll around in snow.

Chabad chasidim have are usual to do symbolic makkot before Yom Kippur currently. Had a readll awkward run in with that. I was going to the mikvah on erev YK and the local Chabad Rav was there too. He asked me to give him makkot as he hadn't had it done yet. So the Rabbi handed me his gartel and got down on his hands and knees and had me 'whip' him with the gartel.

Weirded Out.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

It's done very gently. My husband told me.

Actually, this year, my husband's brother was the person giving everyone "makos." When it came to my husband's turn, another man said, "Uh oh, it's your brother. He's really gonna get you."

My husband responded, "You make me wonder how things are in your family . . ."

So you see, it's all done in good humor, too.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

except in the story it's done so that the Hasid will cry out in pain...

[kressel.livejournal.com]

That's why I think the story's a fake.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

but it's not. it's from a memorial book. my other story is fiction. my paper was written on precisely why this story isn't fiction and the other is.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

Who's the author?

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

Binyomin Orenshtayn

[kressel.livejournal.com]

My husband is taking a History of Chassidus at Touro this semester. I just called him and asked him to ask the professor about the author. The professor didn't know the author, but he also said the story sounded very suspicious and unlike Chassidus.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

Well he's not like an author author, this was in a book which has collections of different rememberings of living in different shtetls. The book itself is called "From a Ruined Garden: The memorial books of Polish Jewry" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0253211875/104-1863811-6679169?v=glance&n=283155
The whippingg was not the focal point of the story at all. That paragraph was the only point it was mentioned. I highly doubt this story is a fake.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

Perhaps it's not a fake, but it certainly makes me question the reliability of the witness.

[arctic-alpine.livejournal.com]

sounds like a love-relationship with God (or the rebbe) with a S&M twist :)

[kressel.livejournal.com]

Sounds more like an academic with a prejudice.

[arctic-alpine.livejournal.com]

huh?

[kressel.livejournal.com]

I think whoever wrote that story had a personal gripe against Hasidim because "S & M," as you phrased it, is not what we're about.

[rivka-m.livejournal.com]

I'm with arctic-alpine on this one