halachic marriage

[theyellowhobbit]

I was having a convo with one of my friends about how 2 kids in his high school got married without actually meaning to by the guy saying the whole "haarei at mikudeshet li..." thing and giving the girl a pencil, which she accepted. Which prompted me to post to the newsgroup, since I didn't know what the phrase was.


subject: curiousity didn't kill the hobbit...

I was wondering- what is the pasook that if a guy says it and gives an object to a girl and she accpets the object then the 2 of them are married?

~TYH

My friend reuven responds:
   

You're seriously oversimplifying things. For the Psauk that I think
you're referring to (which says nothing of the sort) I suggest you read
the first few pages of gamara Kiddushin, as it is an extermely
interesting (and complex) topic. There are 2 Pasukim discussed as
possabilities, one a reuse of the word קח and the other a pasuk from
ירמיהו. And what is the status of these Pasukim? Rambam calls getting
married with money מדברי ספרים, so it might not relly be a pasuk proving
that to you at all. I think Rav Seif's shiur spent a few shiurim on this
last year, so no matter how long I type on the newsgroup, I won't do it
justice.

--Reuven

I write back:
i'm not looking for proof, i'm wondering what the pasook actually is. 
what pasook in yirmiyahu?

My friend Yosef responds to reuven:
Just to clarify- מדברי ספרים doesn't necessarily equal דרבנן- I think 
that some conclude (due to this, among other things) that when Rambam 
uses that phrase, it actually refers to a special type of דאורייתא... 
That was probably a part of R' Seif's shiur.

Ultimately, Reuven's answer is right- learn the first few pages of 
gemara Kiddushin and call the Rabbi in the morning  :) 

-Yosef

I respond to Yosef:
but girls can't learn gemara! it's assur!

Yosef says:
That's actually another part of the shiur... those pages are probably 
not really gemara (at least not originally). So go ahead- knock yourself 
out.

I respond:

but i don't have a chevruta here. ilana is asleep, and generally doesn't 
like to learn gemara. why can't you just tell me the pasook?

or alternatively- anyone wanna come out to 4214 now and learn the end of 
kiddushin? i have it here...

yosef says:
It's not just a pasook- it's a whole series of pesukim and drashot, and 
even what the gemara itself means is somewhat ambiguous. That's why 
reuven said that you're oversimplifying things....

Though then he realized my question was really "what does a guy say when he gives a girl an objetc and they get married?"

I just realized that Reuven and I completely misunderstood your question 
(we thought you wanted the biblical source that marriage can be affected 
by giving an object of worth from a man to a woman). What you're asking 
is not a pasook at all (at least not in the biblical sense). It doesn't 
have to be in any particular language, and the most important thing is 
for the man to indicate that he wants to halakhically marry the woman 
(though again, this is an oversimplification- see Kiddushin 6a for a 
partial treatment).

The phrase commonly used nowadays (which is printed in most siddurim) is:

Harei at mekudeshet lee b'taba'at zoe, k'dat moshe v'yisrael

Behold- you are "mekudeshet" (betrothed?) to me with this ring, 
according to the law of Moses and Israel.

-Yosef

which made me ask:
so tabaat is ring? could that be changed to deli-roll or something? 
[assuming that's worth more than 2 pieces of barley]

i'm so getting married with deli roll!

the final answer:
yeah- you can change it to anything with the value of a pruta+ (though 
there are rabbinic restrictions, such as using a gem, or anything whose 
value is not immediately apparent)

so yours could be:

harei at mekudeshet lee b'deli roll zoe, k'dat moshe v'yisrael.

two other people e-mailed me, one gave me the same answer yosef gave me in the end, the otehr gave me the actual page of kiddushin [2a-2b] and that the words don't even need to be said, it could just be implied. I also have to figure out whether the deli-roll's value is apparent enough that one could use one to get married [or perhaps would a potato kugel work?]

[x-posted to wj2]