This is a title.

[theyellowhobbit]

I got to be Se'udah Slisheet guy today!!!!


OMG! I've wanted to be it forever. But it's always a guy because of Kol Isha, even though it would be possible for a girl to pick out and call out the songs and have the guys start them. They do it that way at Brandeis. But They said if they did it that way here, it would be making a statement that only guys can start songs. But having only a guy be Shalos seudos guy is also making a statement. I gave up after last year.

arigi was Shalos seudos guy this semester.

But he wasn't in the room tonight, so I asked, "Hey can I be shalos seudos guy and call the songs and you guys start them for me?" And they said "Sure."

So I was shalos seudos guy. My lifelong dream!

If only I could be the official one. But now all the mroe reason to go away for all those Shabbats to Maryland.

And I also led psukei, which was awesome (JitW inspired me) and I read Torah for mincha, with only minimal errors.

Comments

[superducky1.livejournal.com]

yay rachel! though now that you've started going to CJC, and get to do shiny things like read torah and the like, isn't shalos seudes, like, small change? sewiously.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

"Hey can I be shalos seudos guy and call the songs and you guys start them for me?"

That sounds like a wonderful halachic solution to the problem! I'm glad you're the Shalosh Seudos guy.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

was. Only for last night. The actual Shalos Seudos guy for next semester is Brad, a sophomore who has a pretty good voice. But maybe I can do that again if he's away for a Shabbat that I'm here...

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

It's not small change because I've wanted to do it forever. I dunno.

A lot of the reason I have a desire to lead things is because I think I can do a good job and make people happy. And when other people don't do a good job, I get frustrated if there's nothing I can do to help fix that.

In general shalshuddis has been good, but there was a time where they always did the same songs, so I would at least always request stuff to change it up a bit.

And I dunno, it's just a lot of fun. And there never really was a reasonw hy it had to be a guy...

[arctic-alpine.livejournal.com]

while maryland hillel has its flaws, I do think we have something going on here that can be spread to other communities. I dont know that we have the pluralism thing down yet, but dammit, we're trying. we've come a long way in the past four years.
the challenge: penn has so many intelligent, knowledgeable people: create a more open, pluralistic community. start small. you might be well-positioned between OCP and CJC, have them co-sponsor an oneg. have someone from each minyan give a dvar torah. have a meeting between OCP and CJC to brainstorm ways that penn can respect all streams of judaism, not just stage 1 pluralism. heck, teach them all of BZ's hilchot pluralism. give a shiur on r. saul berman's tshuva on kol isha and why it doesnt apply to most normal singing situations. sumbit essays on pluralism to that jewish thought journal.
I dont go to penn, I dont know specifically what the community needs. im just tossing out ideas.

[masteraleph.livejournal.com]

The thing is, a lot of that's around already. There aren't formally cosponsored onegs at this point, but that's more because there's no need- CJC does onegs, which large portions of OCP attend, and OCP does tisches (their term for "oneg," with a lot more singing and less dvar torahs than the more formal variety) that some CJC people attend (for more proof, see the Yom Zeh Mechubad tune that DP and I brought to Koach Kallah, which we picked up at a tisch the week before). The person giving the d'var torah at seudah shlishit varies, and is often a member of the Conservative community (and believe me, OCP would be thrilled if that happenned more often). Havdallah has been together for the last few years, and I'm positive that there's a lot more cross-board communication, though that may have to do with the CJC board being about 10 times more organized than it used to be.

I'm of the opinion that the whole "Shalosh Seudos Guy" phenomenon is not really about Kol Isha, so much as a "guys' club" kind of thing. As in, there's a certain segment of people who hold that position, and most of them just happen to be friends [/sarcasm]. What WILL be interesting is to see how havdallah goes next year- the last three years it's been someone from OCP alternating with DP. For 2 of those 6 semesters he was CJC gabbai, for 2 of them CJC cochair, and the rest still a huge presence. Thinking it through though, there aren't many active CJC guys who weren't seniors this year, and certainly not ones who show up on Saturday evening (DJ, ED, LK and others on shabbat morning, and AJ on chag morning, typically). Whether or not they'll let a girl do it...that's going to be more of an issue.

[masteraleph.livejournal.com]

One further thought, which I forgot to put in:

It should be noted that pluralism works both ways. I fully appreciate the things here about seudah shlishit, but on the other hand, just as there's a lack of sensitivity in that situation, it goes the other way too. At Hillel Leaders Assembly the other year, there was definitely a lack of sensitivity towards Orthodox kids (for that matter, there weren't that many Orthodox kids). I definitely recall DP, JS, AL and I waiting and not joining in on several zimmuns (led by girls) so that the Orthodox people from Penn (we all ate much of the time together, and they were all girls) would be able to have a zimmun that they accepted, even if they're not chayaav for it. There was also the "let's actually have seudah shlishit" moment as opposed to leaving when they scheduled maariv, which was about 30-40 minutes before tzeit (though to be fair, they did actually wait for tzeit before starting...I think that was Elyse Winnick more than anything else, though).

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

But that was hillel leaders. At Penn the Orthodox never have any problems.

We might have events that the other groups go to, but usually a few OCP people will go to a CJC oneg, and vice versa.

But we always go to the frummest common denominator rather than breaking up the community. Community is a value, but people's comfort shouldn't be sacrificed for it. But because no one would feel kiddush or havdallah led by a guy is invalid, it always is led by a guy, even if that means that women don't get to lead that stuff. Since we always have to be together. Meanwhile, there's tons of wine and grape juice, and people could always make their own kiddush afterwards if they didn't accept one.

And a women's zimmun is perfectly halachic, and guys can even answer.

[arctic-alpine.livejournal.com]

women saying kiddush might be a good place to start, as it is usually chanted rather than sung, and there is always more grapejuice.
master-aleph- we're having the same conversations at UMD, especially about havdala. I'd be interested in hearing how things develop with you guys.
I think events that not only are attended by people who identify with different groups, but are also sponsored by both groups are important in creating a sense of unity.

UMD doesnt have a seuda shlishit guy, now its a little more ad-hoc, I think the main reason a girl never does it is that its a room with lousy acoustics and only very few guys and no girls that I know of are loud enough to be heard accross it, aspecially as the talkers and singers are intermingled. There's been talk about new arrangements for seuda shlishit or better places to do it than the dining hall but we're crunched for space in the building as it is, so no idea where. I also dont see why kol isha is an issue for starting songs, its about one word that you sing yourself before everyone else picks it up.

zimmun is an interesting one: two leaders are awkward, no girls is exclusionary and only girls is exclusionary. mayeb its ok to have multiple zimmunim in one room, and the focus should be that hey, we all sat down and ate together.

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely loud enough to be heard across a crowded room, if I want to be. Usually I don't sing that loud, but if I need to be heard to give the key for a song, I can do that.

Remember when we had that field trip during pardes and we sang on the busride there [and possibly back]? Good times.

[masteraleph.livejournal.com]

Kol Isha is a particularly stupid reason for Seduah Shlishit here, since we use the Penn Shiron and call song and page out of that before the singing begins. I still say that I have a strong suspicion that it's a "guys' club" kind of thing, with people passing it down to their friends, and that most people just don't care enough to change it.

My guess is that they'll find someone to do havdallah- from what I've heard, there are a fair amount of freshmen coming in to CJC next year, and some of them have got to be guys. And even if they aren't, some of the freshman guys that were here this year are going to be coming more often if CJC is going to continue having Saturday mincha/maariv, so that issue may very well not end up coming up.

As far as I'm concerned, outside of Seudah Shlishit, zimmun should be done away with at Penn for the group overall. It's idiotic on Friday night, when each group at each table is eating together to then have a whole room zimmun where no one can hear what's going on. Yeah yeah yeah, I know they like to have a "community" thing, but it's idiotic when those who want to bentsch will do so anyways and those who don't want to will talk through it.